Legislature(1993 - 1994)
11/04/1993 01:30 PM Senate TRA
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
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JOINT SENATE AND HOUSE TRANSPORTATION COMMITTEE
Anchorage, AK
November 4, 1993
1:30 p.m.
SENATE MEMBERS PRESENT
Senator Bert Sharp, Chairman
Senator Randy Phillips, Vice Chairman
Senator Georgianna Lincoln
Senator Tim Kelly
SENATE MEMBERS ABSENT
Senator Jay Kerttula
HOUSE MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Richard Foster, Chairman
Representative Gary Davis, Vice Chairman
Representative Bill Hudson
Representative Curt Menard
Representative Jerry Mackie
Representative Eldon Mulder
Representative Al Vezey
HOUSE MEMBERS ABSENT
All members present
ALSO PRESENT
Senator Suzanne Little
Senator Steve Rieger
Representative Gail Phillips
Representative Ron Larson
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION & PUBLIC FACILITIES STATEWIDE
PRIORITIZATION PLAN
TAPE 93-23, SIDE A
Number 001
SENATOR BERT SHARP, Chairman of the Senate Transportation
Committee, called the meeting to order at 1:43 p.m. He noted that
the Juneau, Fairbanks, Soldotna and Nome Legislative Teleconference
Sites were on-line, and that Representatives Hudson and Davis would
be participating in the meeting via the teleconference network.
Also, Representative Larson was on-line listening to the meeting.
Chairman Sharp said the purpose of the meeting was an overview by
the Department of Transportation and Public Facilities of the
process that has been ongoing during the summer and fall months.
He then introduced Commissioner Campbell and asked him to proceed
with his presentation.
Number 041
BRUCE CAMPBELL, Commissioner, Department of Transportation & Public
Facilities, in his opening comments introduced his three regional
directors: Steve Sisk, Northern District; Jon Scribner,
Southeastern District; and John Horn, Central District. He also
introduced Mike McKinnon, Chief of Planning in Headquarters and
John Tolley, Chief of Planning in the Central District, who were
present to respond to questions.
Commissioner Campbell first spoke to the 1991 Federal Highway Act
(ISTEA), which he said gives the states, Alaska included, some
flexibility and allows them to do more things with their money, but
at a price. There are a lot more things that they have do in order
to comply with the federal law.
First of all, in order to comply with the federal legislation, the
department has to have a program that has a goal, and they then
have to prioritize their projects. Next, there has to be public
input on the projects. He said the federal requirements are
stringent enough now so that, apparently, what is desired in
Washington is that the department listens to everybody who wants a
say, even to the extent that they disregard the elected peoples'
wishes.
As a result of the federal requirements, the department started
holding public hearings in July with the boroughs, the
municipalities, the villages, etc, all over the state.
Commissioner Campbell said he directed his people that the
department was going to take most of their direction, to the extent
possible, from the elected representatives. The department's
number one direction has been to listen to the people who are
elected to represent the citizens of the state. As a result of
these public hearings, the department has defined what the people
in each of these regions feel their wants and needs are.
Projects have been listed as number one priorities, number two
priorities, number three priorities and number four priorities.
The projects for any particular area are included in the order,
with rare exception, as they were submitted by the boroughs, etc.
The one or two exceptions will be corrected when the list is
republished.
The department still has one more public hearing, and once that is
completed, they will go back through the list and make any
corrections, additions or adjustments that they feel are merited.
The department will then figure out how many of what year's
projects can be built with the funds available.
Commissioner Campbell noted that at this point in time, they really
don't know what any one project is going to cost because they still
have to go through their wet lands procedures, Corps of Engineers
procedure, obtain permits and do all these things that can have a
very major effect on a project's cost. The same is true with the
timing of the projects. All of these things are more difficult and
more time consuming, in many instances, than the design and the
construction of the project.
Commissioner Campbell directed attention to the department's
priority list, which he said they will break down from the
knowledge they have now and try to forecast which projects have the
least restrictions, require the fewest approvals, and in that
respect, are most apt to go first. They will then prioritize a
second time within that list, not based on need, but based on how
fast they think they can get the project ready to go to
construction. Within the next month or six weeks, they will end up
with a construction program for the summer of 1994.
Commissioner Campbell said that at this point in time, he is quite
happy with the program, and he thinks it is a step in the right
direction. The priority list will serve, essentially, as a long-
range program. Based on some very preliminary guesses, there are
probably enough projects on the list to last somewhere between
eight and ten years with the present level of funding they have.
Number 170
CHAIRMAN SHARP opened the meeting to questions from members of the
joint committee.
SENATOR KELLY asked if the construction of a new ferry was
contained in the list of projects. COMMISSIONER CAMPBELL
acknowledged that it was, and he said they are trying to spread the
cost of a new ferry to as many fiscal years as they can. The
Federal Highway Administration has indicated that they would allow
the state to spread it over a three-year period.
Number 180
REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS asked what the federal regulations were
relating to the adding of alternates to the list of projects.
COMMISSIONER CAMPBELL answered that if it is a minor access way or
approach, perhaps, it could be done without going out to bid, but
he didn't think anything of any substance would be in compliance
with the state purchasing regulations.
Number 200
SENATOR RANDY PHILLIPS asked for an update on the Klondike Highway,
the Alaska Highway and the Taylor Highway. COMMISSIONER CAMPBELL
answered that they have not yet signed an agreement with the
Canadian government on the Klondike Highway, but as soon as one
minor insurance item is resolved, the agreement should go forward.
STEVE SISK said they have several projects scheduled for the Alaska
Highway, one that starts right at the border, which should be ready
to start in the coming year, and another one at the slide at Mile
1268. From Tok toward Glennallen, there is a section under
construction right now, which should be completed in 1995, and
there is another section which is currently under design. The
highway from Glennallen to Gakona Junction is also in design for
rehabilitation because of foundation failures. On the Glenn
Highway, from Glennallen west, there is section of highway under
construction which should be completed next year, as well another
section that the design is complete on. COMMISSIONER CAMPBELL said
a joint resolution has been signed with the Yukon government to try
to speed up the loop from Whitehorse to Dawson to Boundary back
down to the Alaska Highway at Tetlin Junction in time for the
celebration of the Centennial of the gold rush.
Number 270
REPRESENTATIVE GAIL PHILLIPS asked if when the department was
holding hearings in different communities, did the public
understand that the federal funding was broken down into the
different categories and that, specifically, they have to use some
for bike paths, pedestrian pathways, etc. COMMISSIONER CAMPBELL
answered that they explained that in every instance that they
could, but it is one of those things that people don't want to hear
and they tend not to listen to it. He pointed out that the
department has just let the first section of the Seward Highway,
and they were successful in getting a big hunk of their safety
money used on that project because they are relocating to avoid
avalanche chutes. He said it is a case where they are actually
building a new road and satisfying a lot of their safety
requirements, however, the enhancement area is tough.
Number 301
REPRESENTATIVE FOSTER commented that he is pleased with DOT's
commitment to some of the small projects in the villages. However,
he has some RS 2477 projects in his district, and he asked if there
is a time frame on these test cases. COMMISSIONER CAMPBELL
answered that the Department of Natural Resources has put together
an excellent staff in Fairbanks that has selected 10 cases and DOT
has started the procedure to notify the federal government that the
state is claiming the right-of-way on these 10 areas. He said it
remains to be seen what the federal government does or doesn't do,
but these are test cases, and as they go, the rest of them will go.
Number 344
SENATOR SHARP asked when it would it be most effective for people
like himself and other local officials to suggest specific projects
that may not be on the list, or they have a problem with the
prioritization. COMMISSIONER CAMPBELL responded that they are
going to try to have the list finalized in the next four to six
weeks, but a program such as this has got to have flexibility in it
because priorities are going to change, needs are going to change.
He said the last public hearing would be held the following week,
and he suggested getting any input in within a couple of days after
that hearing.
Number 400
SENATOR LINCOLN noted that several Bush communities felt that they
were left out of the process totally, and she asked for the
Commissioner's comments on what opportunity the people had to
participate in the hearings held by the department. She also
expressed her disappointment that there are not more projects on
the list relating to roads for water and sewer projects in the
rural areas. MIKE MCKINNON related that while they didn't get to
a lot of individual villages for public meetings, they did do a
mail-out of the package. They have also been in phone contact with
individual community leaders, working with AFN, and they will soon
be participating in the Tribal Providers Conference in December.
COMMISSIONER CAMPBELL added that the department's budget doesn't
allow them to conduct a public hearing in every community in the
state, and the department has tried to have regional public
hearings where they got as close to as many people as they could.
Responding to Senator Lincoln's question concerning sewer and water
roads, COMMISSIONER CAMPBELL said they have been working with DEC,
the Public Health Service and the Bureau of Indian Affairs, and
they included every one of those projects that they are ready to go
on.
Number 506
SENATOR LINCOLN asked if the department anticipates that they can
take care of all of the projects on the list with the money that is
available. COMMISSIONER CAMPBELL answered that all of the projects
they have on the list right now will take somewhere around ten
years of funding at the present level. It will take approximately
three to four years to get through the priority one projects. He
added that they only have one year of assured funds, which is the
$204 million they have for 1994, but they don't know what
obligational ceiling the federal government will put on next year.
Number 610
REPRESENTATIVE MULDER said DeBarr Road has been become a major
thoroughfare in Anchorage and has become a real problem, and he
stated his concern that it is listed as a priority two project and
it could be another three to four years before it rates significant
repair.
TAPE 93-23, SIDE B
Number 001
COMMISSIONER CAMPBELL responded that the department is going to do
the best that they can. For instance, with the Copper River
Highway, which is a $120 million project, if the lawsuit goes on,
that project may stay in priority number one, but it may not
require any funding for four or five years. So the cash that
develops out of that can be quite different than the priority
listing. He said they are dealing with so many changeable unknowns
that about the only thing they are sure of is what their priorities
are.
Commissioner Campbell briefly discussed the Copper River Highway
project, saying they have not yet negotiated a settlement and he
does not know what the timing might be, and that they are not doing
anything on the road right now.
Number 060
JOHN HORN discussed the Whittier project, which he said is on
schedule. DOT is going through the public hearing process, they
are working on an environmental impact statement, which should be
done towards end of 1994, and from that point, they will proceed
into a design phase.
Number 075
REPRESENTATIVE MACKIE asked the Commissioner why the borough ISTEA
plan was abandoned. COMMISSIONER CAMPBELL replied that when he
first started looking at the program, he realized there were
several short-comings. Even though it was a borough transportation
plan, it was part of ISTEA and they have to abide by all of the
federal rules and regulations or they don't get the money. The
problem with the federal highway monies is that it is on a
reimbursable basis, and if the federal government says they haven't
followed all the rules and regulations, they won't give the state
the money. Then the department is in the position of having to go
back to the Legislature for a supplemental. He said in looking
over the boroughs that were to be a part of that plan, there were
only two or three of the boroughs that had the staff, the knowledge
and the expertise to go ahead with that program and not get them
into trouble. Also, there were many of the boroughs, especially
the unorganized boroughs, that under the borough transportation
plan were required to take over the maintenance of the project
after it was built who didn't have the tax base to come up with the
dollars necessary to do the maintenance.
Number 195
REPRESENTATIVE MACKIE asked for the Commissioner's comments on a
dedicated fund that would be dedicated strictly towards the
maintenance and operations of the state's highways in the future.
COMMISSIONER CAMPBELL said he doesn't have any strong feelings on
that one way or the other. However, one of the things he has
looked at is doubling the gasoline tax, which would produce
approximately $25 million in additional revenue, although that is
a long way from funding the maintenance of the highways. He added
that he would have no objection to doubling the gasoline tax
because most of the states now are over 20 cents on the gasoline
tax while Alaska is at 8 cents.
Number 213
SENATOR LITTLE said people on the Kenai Peninsula work very hard at
getting their roads on a priority list and then there is a new list
and their road is not on it, so they have to start the process all
over again. She asked Commissioner Campbell if he sees this
priority list as one that will be here for the next several years.
COMMISSIONER CAMPBELL replied that this is not only a priority
list, it is an inventory of the needs for the state. He thinks
that this inventory will go on and on, and each year it will be
revised somewhat as the needs advise. He predicts that next year
the process will be very simple because it will just be a process
of adding on whatever new priorities have come up and changing
priorities as conditions have changed.
Number 275
REPRESENTATIVE MENARD said it his understanding that next year's
budget will be put together with approximately $204 million in
ISTEA monies and those monies will be obligated to just priority
one projects. COMMISSIONER CAMPBELL acknowledged that is the case,
He added that it is possible that a number two priority could make
it somewhere, but with the amount that they have in priority one
projects, he doubts that will happen.
Number 318
REPRESENTATIVE FOSTER said a couple of years ago ISTEA funding was
about $160 million and they are now up to about $205 million. He
asked the Commissioner what kind of budgets from the federal
government will the state have to match five or six years down the
road. COMMISSIONER CAMPBELL answered that the amount of money that
is allocated to Alaska is set by law, but then the executive branch
can set the obligational ceiling at somewhat less than the amount
that has been appropriated, and that's the game they have been
playing for 20 years.
Number 336
REPRESENTATIVE FOSTER said a lot of small villages see a little bit
of hope for a little work coming out of the BIA construction fund.
He asked if there has been any cooperative role between the state
and the BIA to help some of the villages, or do they have to go to
one or the other. MIKE MCKINNON answered that DOT met with the BIA
and they are in the process of trying to get a package ready that
talks about cooperative funding for borough projects. COMMISSIONER
CAMPBELL added that they don't want to have too much administration
in any village, and they would like to combine it so that it is all
under one administration.
Number 375
REPRESENTATIVE FOSTER pointed out that a lot of buildings like the
airport buildings in some of the smaller communities are in sad
shape and there has really never been any push by the Legislature
to help fund DOT toward the maintenance of those buildings, as well
as the replacement of some of the older equipment in some of the
smaller communities. He asked the Commissioner what he saw as the
committee's role in giving DOT a hand to help these situations.
COMMISSIONER CAMPBELL answered that DOT did get an 11 percent raise
in its equipment rental rates going into the next budget year, so
they will be generating a little bit more which will be reflected
in their maintenance budget. At this point in time, he thinks the
department is on track.
Number 419
REPRESENTATIVE FOSTER asked if there has been any progress in
resolving some of the trucking inspection issues between DOT and
some of the other departments. COMMISSIONER CAMPBELL replied that
under ISTEA there are 19 sanctions, one of which is vehicle
inspection and enforcement, and they are kind of on the ragged edge
on that. The department is working with the Alaska Trucking
Association and they plan on getting together on November 15 to
work out the regulations. He said the safety records on the
highways are of great concern to him, and part of the problem is
that there are not enough police officers to do the day-to-day
truck inspection.
Commissioner Campbell pointed out that one way to cut down on the
maintenance of the state's highways would be to outlaw studded
tires like the State of Minnesota has done. Committee members
requested that more information be received on the Minnesota law
and how it is working.
Number 457
REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON asked if there are many projects that have
been appropriated to over several years that are still outstanding
accounts and have to paid before they get into the priority one
projects. COMMISSIONER CAMPBELL answered that he didn't know how
many outstanding projects they have that might have some
obligation. He said he thought if they had to clean up something,
it would be pretty minor, and that it would have to come out of the
$204 million. STEVE SISK added that they don't have any
outstanding claims that are going to cut into it to any extent at
all.
Number 503
REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON asked if the Legislature can have some
assurance that the local input to the total prioritization is going
to be listened to. COMMISSIONER CAMPBELL responded that once they
establish their priority list, they are going to follow it. If
they have to change priorities, he said he would hope the
legislative representatives would recognize the need for that. In
researching the past nine years, they found that the department has
pretty much held to every project, to every commitment that was
made, although it may not have been for the right number of dollars
and it may not have been in the year that someone thought it was
going to be built. MIKE MCKINNON said one of the things that the
department has heard from local governments across the state is
that they need to do a timely and effective job of reporting on the
work that they are doing. COMMISSIONER CAMPBELL agreed that
communication is not at the level it should be at.
TAPE 93-24, SIDE A
Number 001
SENATOR RANDY PHILLIPS asked for a clarification on how the list
for aviation statewide is developed. MIKE MCKINNON explained that
it is the very same process that is used for the federal highway
program. The projects are discussed with the communities, the
projects are ranked at the regional level and submitted to the
statewide aviation group in Anchorage, they are then reviewed and
submitted to the commissioner.
SENATOR RANDY PHILLIPS expressed concern that Merrill Field is a
heavily used airstrip and is in need of attention. He also asked
the status of land acquisition at Klunie Lake. JOHN HORN answered
that there is a policy committee looking at how to proceed with
Klunie Lake.
Number 063
REPRESENTATIVE GAIL PHILLIPS referred to a project in Seldovia and
said that when the BIA comes into Alaska to do projects, the way
the funding was established and the prohibitions on federal highway
policies, not a single person in Seldovia could be hired to do that
road project. She expressed concern that people were brought in
from out of state to do a road project in a small community in
Alaska. COMMISSIONER CAMPBELL responded that he was not sure what
the BIA rules were in those areas, but it is something they will
discuss with them. He also noted that with federal funds, the
state can't discriminate against anybody because of their place of
residence.
Number 100
REPRESENTATIVE FOSTER asked for an explanation on an 8 percent tax
the state has placed upon ground transportation units at the
Anchorage International Airport. COMMISSIONER CAMPBELL explained
that the state rents space at the airport to car rental agencies.
The tax was placed on ground transportation units that do not rent
space at the airport and they pay a head tax for anybody they pick
up at the airport to get one of their rental cars.
Number 161
REPRESENTATIVE AL VEZEY commented that the priority list is a well
balanced list, and he was particularly pleased that the
reconstruction of approximately 25 percent of the Dalton Highway is
on the priority one list. COMMISSIONER CAMPBELL said the Dalton
Highway is very important to the state, both from the industrial
point of view and the tourist point of view. The Tanana Chiefs and
the Arctic Borough went to court and got the opening of that road
closed. There has been some negotiation with those groups and they
have some requests for certain things to happen on that road which
the state is attempting to address. The Department of Public
Safety has put together some estimates for the additional services
being requested, and as soon as that gets up on their priority
list, DOT may be including that in some requests from the
Legislature.
Number 225
SENATOR LINCOLN said the priority list includes the McGrath Road
access, and she asked for assurance that this is, in fact, a road
to Kantishna and not to McGrath, because the people of McGrath do
not want a road to McGrath. She expressed the same concern with a
road to McCarthy. COMMISSIONER CAMPBELL said he could not give her
that assurance, and that will be determined as the project
develops. He added that his responsibility is to look to the
overall state need, but in doing so, he would also consider the
objections of a local community.
Number 306
REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS asked when the committee can expect to see a
new list of the priority projects, as well as if they know what
some of the changes might be. COMMISSIONER CAMPBELL responded that
the new list should be out around December 15 and they hope it will
be their final list. They know that the priority list for the
Kenai-Soldotna Borough was not right and they will be correcting
it. MIKE MCKINNON added that there are a few adjustments coming
into the department from communities that they will take action on
and make available to the public.
Number 365
REPRESENTATIVE MACKIE asked if it was correct that Jim Ayers would
be resigning his position as director of the Alaska Marine Highway
System. He added that should that happen, it will be a tremendous
loss to the state and to the ferry system, and he encouraged the
commissioner to involve the coastal communities in the effort of
selecting a new director. COMMISSIONER CAMPBELL answered that Mr.
Ayers is probably going to be leaving, but that is not final at
this moment in time.
Number 399
SENATOR SHARP and REPRESENTATIVE FOSTER expressed their
appreciation to Commissioner Campbell and his staff for their
appearance before the committee.
The meeting was adjourned at approximately 3:45 p.m.
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